Zezo forum:

Post by toxcct | 2017-11-25 | 00:21:23

Hi everyone,

Just to let you know, I move the new version of the polars to the main address.

There, you will have the polar charts for every running and incoming races.
You can check/uncheck the options subscribed, and your settings will be remembered for each race separately.
I also provide an easily spotted countdown ; it counts down the time remaining before begining of the races about to start, or the end of the races in progress.
Here it goes : http://toxcct.free.fr/polars/

Additionnaly, I created a brand new CSV generator today.
CSV for each sail and also aggregated into a single CSV file will be provided automatically on each race, but until I get this done, here is its page, if you want to play with it:
http://toxcct.free.fr/polars/generator.htm

Its use is a bit tricky if you don't know where to get the source data to feed it.
If you don't know yet about that nice Chrome Extension which sniffs the WebSocket packets between the game and VR server, have a look here :
http://zezo.org/forum.pl?tid=6113

Once you found the right packet to paste, then it's pretty simple.
First, you "Read" that pasted text, and if it has been understood properly, you can then choose to generate the CSV text by choosing the sail to extract.
But you can also aggregate several sails of your choice to make a single CSV file, using the best sail for every situation...

Enjoy !
(for any feedback, bugs, suggestions, feel free to post something here)

At last, thanks Cvetan your help providing technical inputs, and thanks Michael for your nice extension ;)

177 Comments

Post by toxcct | 2017-11-25 | 00:25:12

Oops, I forgot to add some, and I can't edit a new topic.

--> Once the CSV block is generated, then you only have to copy it, and paste it into a text editor.
Name the file after the name you prefer, and don't forget to set the extension to CSV (for example : jib.csv).

and that's it. Now Excel will be able to open it properly, and so will QtVLM...

Post by GeGaX | 2017-11-25 | 01:36:16

Superb work toxcct ;)
The polar chart is perfect and this .csv polar generator is just great !

Post by toxcct | 2017-11-26 | 02:11:03

Thanks mate :)

Post by Inicio | 2017-11-25 | 03:29:27

Great!
Thanks!

Post by toxcct | 2017-11-26 | 02:11:25

Thanks ;)

Post by Devaneio | 2017-11-25 | 03:40:27

Hello toxcct,

I noticed a small difference between the speeds on your polar chart and Zezo's one. Apparently the speed increase due to the polished hull was applied twice. If you uncheck the "hull polish" option the speed values become the same.
Could you check if my observation is correct?

Regards

Post by toxcct | 2017-11-26 | 02:13:38

I'll have a look once I get back home (I'm out for the week-end).
Anyway, I implemented the hull polish factor separatedly, but my main data source is still zezo so far, so maybe Cvetan implemented it already, but that we cannot uncheck the option...

Cvetan, a word on this ?

Post by JohnT | 2017-11-25 | 05:31:38

Hi toxcct,
This is really useful - many thanks
Really not a big deal, I think there may be a bug in the way you display race time/local time: Maybe you have the sign of the timezone difference the wrong way round. I am on GMT -8 and the page currently shows the time as 1300 on 25th, whereas here it is actually 19:30 on 24th. It's also telling me the race starts in 17.5hrs rather than the 8.5 that VR is telling me.

Post by toxcct | 2017-11-26 | 02:15:52

I'll have a look tomorrow too, but that seems strange.
Here in France, it displays a correct "GMT+1".
Maybe I don't set the UTC time reference correctly...

Post by JohnT | 2017-11-26 | 05:34:20

I think that's the problem: earlier today it was telling me the race was about to start, 9hrs after the race actually started. But really not significant since the polar information is great; though I'm still looking for the polar option that lets me sail faster than everyone else ;)

Post by toxcct | 2017-11-27 | 10:39:53

Fixed. Can you have a look now ?

Post by belharra | 2017-11-25 | 11:56:03

very very very good job ---- tks very much

Post by toxcct | 2017-11-26 | 02:17:11

Thanks for the feedback. much appreciated :)

Post by Kroko | 2017-11-25 | 12:50:46

Nice job.

I found something odd in the polar chart.

Let's take the start values of RORC as an example: TWS 17.5 TWA 130 and Full pack. It gives the best sail C0 and a speed of 13.46. Now if you untick Light sails or Heavy sails, the speed alters to 13.43. Other values also become different. But the best sail is still the same C0, so why the different values? Is it about the polished hull? The differences seem to be of that magnitude (0.3%).

Post by toxcct | 2017-11-26 | 02:20:20

I noticed something similar few days ago during the testing, and forgot to report it to Cvetan.
Can you check if zezo's polar behave the same on that test case (same race, same twa/tws) ?

I'm actually using zezo's data sources for my chart, so the issue is most probably on that side (I didn't test that yet though)

Post by Kroko | 2017-11-26 | 07:52:45

It is not possible for me to check directly, but the difference probably originates in zezo's data.

I noticed that zezo's router gives a slighly faster result in this RORC case, when heavy sail is not used in routing and full pack is chosen compared to same routing with a non-full pack case, where heavy sail is not chosen. I assume polish is implemented in the data only when you have full pack.

But if polish is unticked in your chart and you tick/untick other sails than the best sail, the result should not alter. Even if you untick polish, altering occures.

These are small anomalies, your chart is very good and I appreciate your work.

Post by toxcct | 2017-11-27 | 11:13:15

Just to let you know :

Now that I have a CSV Generator working, and that I can extract the polars data from VR, a next feature to come will be to rework the polars generator to build the compiled source files which are used behind the chart.

Post by marcusbelgicus | 2017-11-25 | 13:25:48

Amazing job toxcct, put the link of the chart in my favorites!

Post by toxcct | 2017-11-26 | 02:20:57

Thanks for the support :)

Post by nsp | 2017-11-26 | 03:19:22

Wonderful job Toxcct. Super useful.
Thank you so much.

Post by toxcct | 2017-11-27 | 10:40:15

Thanks :)

Post by Pastoo | 2017-11-26 | 15:42:44

Thank you Toxcct
Very helpfull job !!!

And special thanks to Cvetan for his entire work

Post by toxcct | 2017-11-27 | 10:40:52

Thank you, and yes, big thumb up to Cvetan too

Post by GeGaX | 2017-11-26 | 21:55:30

Just two small suggestions:

- the first, on the page of the polar chart, put the link of the polar file generator

- the second (more personal), would you be inclined to test its colors of sails (they are those of the extension Route zezo.org)
Jib = #FFD479 / LJ = #FFFC79 / Stay = #D4FB79 / Spi = #76D6FF / LG = #7A81FF / HG = #D783FF / C0 = #FF7E79

;)

Post by toxcct | 2017-11-27 | 11:09:00

Hi GeGaX,

Well, Choosing the colors was a long brainstorming with the beta testers who were involved.

I tried your colors anyway today, but the chart readability is too low, for 2 main reasons :
- the colors are too light, too "pastels".
- The adjacent colors are too close, and we don't always perceive properly the switch point between 2 sails.

For theese reasons, I think I'll still stick to my color set so far... Sorry :)

Regarding the CSV Generator, a link will be added, but it is still incomplete (Polish and Foils are not integrated yet).
Anyway, I'm planning to change the way we pick a race on the polars chart page, so the menu will be reworked BTW...

Thanks anyway for your feedback.

Post by GeGaX | 2017-11-27 | 11:58:47

Hi toxcct,
I had not thought about that ... I will rethink the colors (less pastels) and change the order, I come back to you after
I have in the idea that it would be cool that zezo, polar charts (you) and Route zezo (me) we use the same colors that would have a continuity on the display in different support
Currently Route zezo, with yours color scheme, is not very speaking ... so I'm trying to improve that.

I know it's only visual, that there is no impact on the game itself, I'm just trying to improve this 'comfort' ;)

Post by toxcct | 2017-11-27 | 12:15:01

Well, in this regard, I mainly use zezo's colors, except for one or two sails which were found to close to the others.

Anyway, if you want to use my colors set, here it is :

app.lists.colors = [

  //Jib,      Spi,        Staysail,   Light Jib,  Code 0,     Heavy Gnk,  Light Gnk

  "#ff0000",  "#00ff00",  "#0000ff",  "#f7514e",  "#00a000",  "#b00000",  "#d77900"

];

you might want to use them, and tweek them a little bit to a littler whiter value...

Post by nsp | 2017-11-27 | 12:36:06

Now... this is teamwork...congratulations to you both!!!!
VR TEAM look at them and learn :))))

Post by zezo | 2017-11-27 | 13:47:10

My colors are far from perfect. They were a very fast attempt to get something working, so if you come with a better palette I'll use it too.

Post by toxcct | 2017-11-27 | 15:35:18

Well, for the attempts I tried to build a new palette, yours was good enough though, so I stuck with it, except for 1 or 2 sails, but hey, not that bad though ^^

Post by JohnT | 2017-11-27 | 18:03:59

Picking up on suggestions in the Chrome Plugin thread: could you think about adding a selector for 'target course', and then show VMGt (VMG towards target) based on it? This would be an all purpose version of the VMG towards the next mark that people have asked for.

Post by toxcct | 2017-11-27 | 18:12:34

What do you mean by "a selector for 'target course'" exactly ?

regarding the VMG to a givent target (this particular indicator has a standardized name which I forgot right now), I don't know how I could indicate this as the polars charts are something pretty static.

What you need is a calculator which gives you the proper course to follow, taking in account the orthodromic path (the earth is not flat, even though some stupids think so, and so the path has to take in account the earth roundness).

Maybe if anyone provides some hints here, I could consider implement this btw

Post by JohnT | 2017-11-28 | 06:14:10

What I was proposing was a calculation the same as VMG, but instead of the calculating the speed made good along a course of 0 & 180 TWA, it's the speed along a course of X if you are sailing with a chosen TWA.
The request in the Chrome plugin thread was specifically VMG towards the next mark, but that is less flexible, and also should really include the orthodromic calculation.

In terms of how to indicate it: you already have all the inputs except the target direction. So you would need to add another angle selector (a clone of the TWA one), and show the output based on that, TWA windspeed etc; so it would be a single VMGt readout (similar to the existing VMG readout.

But I also suggest you ignore this unless some other people also say it would be useful:)

Post by karriv | 2017-11-28 | 09:18:04

What John is referring to is VMC, Velocity Made good on Course, which can also be calculated to a desired bearing. Formula is simple so long as you know the heading: VMC=BoatSpeed*Cos(Heading-Bearing). VMG is a special case of this where Bearing=TWD making Heading-Bearing=TWA.

If you want to calculate optimal VMC heading for a given bearing, TWD and TWS, that's slightly more complicated, naturally no simple formula for that since that depends on the polar.

Post by zezo | 2017-11-28 | 09:31:21

The VMC is a very good indicator for a inshore race, because it directly shows the best tack at the moment. Not so useful for long-term/strategical routing, because you are rarely going straight for the next waypoint.

It's also more useful in the real world with short-term unpredictable wind shifts than in the virtual race where the wind is known in advance few hours ahead.

Post by WaterHammer | 2017-12-06 | 11:56:51

Sometimes (or quite many times) I'm interested in "going as fast eastward as possible" or the like, and for such cases the VMC is very handy. Having the course line in the diagram with a line perpendicular to that touching the polar envelope would be really interesting (to me at least, maybe to others as well).
But thanks for the great tool!

PS, I noted a small glitch. When checking on more and more options, I see that the speed increases even if the added option should not contribute. E.g. for strong winds with heavy sails checked I see the speed still increases for the same TWA when I check the light sails option. Is there an explanation for that?
Anyhow: many thanks!

Post by zezo | 2017-12-06 | 12:54:21

Damn, you are good ;-)

Presence of all possible sails triggers the hull polish too - both in the router and polar display (they use files generated from the same source for consistency)

Post by GeGaX | 2017-11-27 | 21:16:52

I kept the colors of the VR02 polar card. It was readable, tell me if you want to test toxcct or cvetan.
I can not do it here ...

Post by toxcct | 2017-12-01 | 00:54:37

Minor version update 4.1 :
--------------------------

The race selection has been reworked for tactile devices.

Now, the ugly combobox is replaced by a more visual set of vignettes, which you probably recognize from elsewhere :)

I am not sure yet how all this will end, but eventually, the closed races that are currently missing (I know), will be back, grouped under an "archive" thumbnail.
Same for incoming races, if we are having too many races do display.

Feel free to suggest any UI design.

Post by Peperazzi | 2017-12-01 | 10:56:34

Bonjour, toxcct, je trouve votre tableau des polarit�s GENIAL.
Grand merci � vous et aux personnes qui ont collabor�.
Grand merci aussi � Zezo.

Post by toxcct | 2017-12-01 | 12:12:19

Merci bcp :)

Post by Bigsandful | 2017-12-01 | 21:59:39

can anyone help me find the right string?

I don't ever get a string with "scriptData":{"polar":{

Post by toxcct | 2017-12-02 | 01:01:51

Check here : http://zezo.org/forum.pl?tid=6113

The string you're looking to is appearing when you're showing the the WebSocket messages caught...

Post by KelpiedSinglePlayer | 2017-12-05 | 10:27:00

I found the string and I copy/paste until the end of the line but I got a SyntaxError: Unexpected token : in JSON at position 12.

The frame I copy start with
"scriptData":{"polar":{"_id":8.0,"label":"mono/clipper_70_v2","globalSpeedRatio":1.0..........

The frame end with ........[0.0,4.53,5.04,5.8,6.78,7.17,7.82,7.21,4.55,2.12,0.0]]}]},"rc":"ok"}}

Where is the mistake ?

Post by KelpiedSinglePlayer | 2017-12-05 | 10:45:14

Then, as far as I can in the Foils performance:

"foil":{"speedRatio":1.04,"twaMin":80.0,"twaMax":160.0,"twaMerge":10.0,"twsMin":16.0,"twsMax":35.0,"twsMerge":5.0}

It seems that Foils are only active from 16 to 35nd, but I can see in your polar that Foils are already active from 11,1 nd for a twa=140

What is twsMerge (=5.0nd) ?

Many thanks for your nice work.

Post by zezo | 2017-12-05 | 11:19:13

There is linear interpolation of the speedRatio outside of the 16-35 region, i.e. foils start working from zero @11 knots, 1.04 at 16 and so on. Same for TWA.

Post by KelpiedSinglePlayer | 2017-12-05 | 11:24:48

OK, many thanks Cvetan for the always quick and clear answer...

Post by KelpiedSinglePlayer | 2017-12-05 | 11:30:42

Then, Toxcct, do not answer my question regarding the polar frame.
I've found the mistake by myself...

I just added the beginning of the line so that the frame now start with:

{"@class":".LogEventResponse","requestId":"xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx_x","scriptData":{"polar":.............

and it runs well now...

Thanks for the job.

Post by toxcct | 2017-12-05 | 12:40:24

Hey, you posted the question 1 hour ago, and I have a day job; please give me time to answer :p

Anyay, you found the answer : you had to copy the entiere object, starting with the first '{' character.

I have future plans for the CSV Generator, but these days, very few time for it though...

Post by toxcct | 2017-12-07 | 18:26:57

Minor version update 4.2 :
--------------------------

The race selector has been reworked again.
The closed/archived races are back, behin a beautiful 2-masted beast.

Well, not all races are there ; only those I was able to gather since I developped the Polar tool.

Also, I added a small donate link in the page footer, for those willing to help :)

Post by Backslash0 | 2017-12-09 | 20:08:52

It's strange, I get exactly the same polars for JIB than for all consolidated sails. Rest of sails polars are different

Post by toxcct | 2017-12-10 | 00:45:22

Can you elaborate a bit more ? what checkboxes are ticked, and what values are not as you expected ?

Post by WaterHammer | 2017-12-10 | 01:24:05

Post by Backslash0 | 2017-12-10 | 03:34:10

With all checkboxes ticked, if selecting "consolidated (best sail)" I get exactly same polars as selecting single JIB sail. I've tried twice, with different log captures.I know all seven single sail polars (including JIB) are ok, as I made them also manually and match perfectly with the correspondent output in the generator, so I deduce consolidated polars are wrong, but I don't understand why

Post by toxcct | 2017-12-16 | 01:44:02

So, back on this.

I tried your test case today, and I cannot reproduce your issue.

The zips contains a distinct CSV file for each sail, and an additional consolidated CSV with the best sail for each couple of TWS/TWA.

I compared the consolidated extracts with every individual sail file, and all I can say is that I see a lot of differences on each comparison, so I think you made something wrong, but I can't understand what...

Post by Ursus Maritimus | 2017-12-11 | 17:49:07

would it be possible to highlight foils when they become active?
and even nicer, indicate the speed gain in %
similar to the vmg calculation for eacht ATW

I assume foils kickin' in are reflected already in the calculated speed

Post by zezo | 2017-12-11 | 18:32:13

You can think about foils like a different set of polars. You can actually implement them that way. Bump the polars between the twa and tws limits with 1.04 and you are there.

It would make sense if there was manual action required or abrupt change that would suggest sailing within the range and then outside, but that's not the case.

Post by Ursus Maritimus | 2017-12-11 | 18:41:11

like auto and manual foils ...
... and different deployment penalties ;)

Post by toxcct | 2017-12-12 | 14:31:47

Noted. I will :)

Post by toxcct | 2017-12-12 | 17:27:31

Hi DancingDjMike,

You might want to check v4.3.

I could also add a graphical overlay to display where the foils are active, but I fear that too much information kills the readability of the chart...

I'll test this later and let you guys know if I publish such a change.

Post by Inicio | 2017-12-12 | 02:11:07

For me, it is almost impossible to distinguish the colors of the Jib and the Light Jib

Post by nsp | 2017-12-12 | 04:48:33

It doesn't really matter Jib never shows up in polars if you have Light Sails. You will always use Light Jib and never Jib.

If you have Heavy Sail you won't confuse colours with Staysail.

If you don't have eiter Light or Heavy Sails, you always use Jib.

Problem solved, without you needing glasses ;P

Post by Kroko | 2017-12-12 | 06:24:33

But if you have Light sail but not C0, both Jib and Light Jib is there side by side simultaneously. I had difficulties with this too. Those two colors are hard to distinguish on certain screens.

Post by nsp | 2017-12-12 | 13:05:04

I couldn't figure a solution with LS and not C0, sorry. For me is by far the most used sail.

But in that situation yes.

Post by toxcct | 2017-12-12 | 14:34:32

Wrong. Check the polars for the VOR, with 12knots of wind for instance ;)
[Edit] didn't ready all the comments before answering... Yes, it happens when Code 0 is not on board...

@Inicio, I'll consider changing the color set in that regard then...

Post by Inicio | 2017-12-12 | 16:48:07

Thanks!
In the first hours of this leg, was a change bewteen Staysail, Jib and Light Jib...

Post by toxcct | 2017-12-12 | 17:55:36

Can you check now ?

I made the Jib darker, and the Light Jib lighter...

Post by Inicio | 2017-12-12 | 18:32:55

Great!
Many thanks!

Post by migaguiar | 2017-12-12 | 06:30:44

Great Job... Thanks to all!

Post by toxcct | 2017-12-14 | 01:56:27

Minor version update 4.3 :
--------------------------

Foils activation range can be displayed, and actual speed factor is displayed when foils are active.
I'll consider display a gradation in the color used to match the factor values, but I still don't know yet how to do that ;)

@DancingDjMike : you are expected to like this one ^^

Post by Ursus Maritimus | 2017-12-14 | 02:05:05

naais!

Post by nsp | 2017-12-14 | 02:01:11

Brilliant!! :D

Post by GeGaX | 2017-12-14 | 02:14:04

Superb tool toxcct, very good job, essential tool ;)

Post by toxcct | 2017-12-14 | 10:32:28

Post by toxcct | 2017-12-14 | 10:49:27

Thank you every one of you who kindly reached the "Donate" link down the page so far...

And thank you all the others who support this project from the dark side of VR (everybody here I suppose ^^)

Post by crazyeight | 2017-12-14 | 18:09:12

Nicely done... keep up the great work. Any chance you will add the ability to upload boat polars for races like MidSea Race, or Transat?

Post by toxcct | 2017-12-14 | 22:00:49

hm, can you elaborate ?
What do you mean by "upload polars" ?

And what is "MidSea Race" ? (I feel like a total noob ; I don't understand some comments here ^^)

Post by toxcct | 2017-12-16 | 01:36:02

See here, where I reply to Sir_Petrus with 2 links to the CSV files I extracted : http://zezo.org/forum.pl?tid=6169

Is this what you were looking for ?

Post by ujami-JK-Ada | 2017-12-14 | 14:53:28

well done, thanks a lot

Post by Sir_Petrus | 2017-12-15 | 12:58:02

HI
Does anyone has the polar csv files that want to share with me (a no IT wizard), so I could use it in my excel file?
Please, very please.
I will be very thankfull.

Fair winds to all
Pedro

Post by toxcct | 2017-12-15 | 15:16:53

Are you after a consolidated CSV file, or as many files as sails in the boat ?

BTW, which race/boat? and which sails are to be extracted ?

Post by Sir_Petrus | 2017-12-15 | 18:36:04

Hi toxcct
I am looking for all single sail .csv files, like the ones we could extract from VR2 the nice pst files. them I can do everything else in the Excel.

The game is the VOR.
Thanks a lot

And fair winds.
Pedro

Post by toxcct | 2017-12-16 | 00:22:40

Hi Pedro,

I don't know if you're aware of this extractor anyway :
http://toxcct.free.fr/polars/generator.htm

toxcct

Post by Sir_Petrus | 2017-12-16 | 04:09:12

Thanks a lot.
I know the extractor. What I don't is where to get the what it demands.

Fair winds
Pedro

Post by marcusbelgicus | 2017-12-16 | 00:12:25

I was wondering how the polar graphs are generated. Because I was trying to know exactly what was the difference in boat speed between code 0 and heavy sails, at 135� and 30 Nm (normally code 0 best sail), I noticed that if I un-cross the light sail or the heavy sail button, it has an impact on the code 0 speed. Both on zezo and Toxcct graphs.

Post by zezo | 2017-12-16 | 00:28:19

On my graph the full pack also assumes a hull polish which adds exactly 0.3% boat speed. So you have to multiply/divide by 1.003 to get comparable numbers.

Maybe it's a good idea to add a separate hull polish checkbox, at least for the polars.

Post by toxcct | 2017-12-16 | 00:32:07

hehe, for that one, I already did it.
Can you notify me when/if you rebuild the full pack png without the polish, so I can gather it back ?

Thanks.

Post by toxcct | 2017-12-16 | 00:29:27

Hi Marcus,

Yes, this is a known "issue" in zezo's polars, which I still use (until I find enough time to build my own compiler).
I guess there is a mistake when generating the "full pack" sails, where the hull polish is considered also enabled.

@Cvetan, do I understand that issue properly ?

[Edit] OK, we answered in the same time, and OK, I figured it well too :)

Post by zezo | 2017-12-16 | 00:31:00

It's not a bug. It's a feature ;-)

At first there were just a pro/no pro versions and the pro included the polish. Then by popular request I generated the 8 possible combinations of sail packs and left the polish with the full pack.

Post by toxcct | 2017-12-16 | 00:32:32

#EngineerJokeInside ! lol

Post by toxcct | 2017-12-16 | 00:44:28

Yup, I totally understand this.

Sadly, the things is : the possible setup of a boat with all the sails but without hull polish cannot be reflected truly in our polars.

The good news is that it's even easier to code it as it is a constant speed factor, unless the foils for instance.
So yes, it's probably a good idea to pop it out of the png, and let the polar graph use a dedicated checkbox for it.
For the router, it might not be that simple though.

Post by zezo | 2017-12-16 | 00:48:51

It's simple. Dedicate a bit in the options, add 5 lines in the C code, 10 lines html and js.

Just not sure if it's worth it, given that there is more than 0.3% difference between the client and the server most of the time.

It's even easier to add the static 0.3% with full sail pack to the router code.

Post by toxcct | 2017-12-16 | 00:50:52

Ok ; I'll consider removing the extra speed myself then :)

Post by toxcct | 2017-12-16 | 02:40:50

Fixed on my side in version 4.3.4.

Hull polish is neutralized when coming with your "full pack" whilst hull polish option is not explicitely checked.

Post by marcusbelgicus | 2017-12-16 | 14:02:19

Thank you to both of you! Was trying to undertand the problem that 'La Semillante' identified with the 'autosail' option, and I also conclude that within the angle we have used and with the wind speed we had yesterday, we should have kept always the same sail.

Post by KelpiedSinglePlayer | 2017-12-16 | 08:18:57

Happy but a bit surprised...

I do not know what happened that night on the VOR, but I took 5 nm to all the leaders without doing anything just staying at TWA 130 with my only C0/foils/polish. I would not be surprised if it was related to an Autosail effect because the TWS was around 18/19kn.

Result: a jumps in the ranking from 8xx to 5xx !!!

Post by KelpiedSinglePlayer | 2017-12-16 | 10:34:42

and then back from 5xx to 8xx but still 5nm won on the leaders... so strange ranking !!

Post by zezo | 2017-12-16 | 11:41:35

You've overtaken the boats South of you. I fell from 200 to 1200.

You may have also sailed at the TWA 129 sweet spot - there is a mini-peak in the polars there. A two оr four unneeded sail changes may have happened to other boats too.

Post by marcusbelgicus | 2017-12-16 | 14:10:37

Exactly, the south boats have now a much worse ranking since they are moving away from the ideal route which is the white line.
Maybe also the reference you take, as the calculation is not done at the same time for all boats we can get up to 1 miles difference from one calculation to another.

Post by fatuivamarquesas | 2017-12-23 | 08:34:25

Post by fatuivamarquesas to toxcct
Good morning. Hello. Fantastic your generator. Do you know where we can find the polar for the Verne 2017 Jules, pro and non-professional?

Post by toxcct | 2017-12-23 | 09:25:53

Post by Inicio | 2017-12-23 | 11:41:20

Maybe yes. Because of the problem of serial changes in the AutoSail.

Post by toxcct | 2017-12-23 | 17:58:47

Who was this intended to ?

I don't understand ; I think you replied to wrng post, didn't you ?

Post by Inicio | 2017-12-23 | 19:10:58

No.
At the crossover TWA between sails, the AutoSail make serial changes.
If you know the speed of the two sails you can calculate if activate the AutoSail or deactivate it for avoid those serial changes and how you can lose if not activate the Autosail and you will be sailing with the "wrong" sail.

Post by Ursus Maritimus | 2017-12-23 | 19:59:44

you can always switch off the best or second best sail in toxcct polars to find the speed differences around a switchover point.

which sails are best and second best can be seen in the VR-client when you click on sails.

I've been using autosail all of leg 3 and sometimes adjusted my ATW by a few degrees to stay away from the changeover. And than when the wind changes in strength and you cannot avoid the sail change, you adjust your ATW by 4 or 5 degrees to stay on the other side of the changeover.

only at the last straight to the line when the wind dropped I turn autosail of and selected a little early my Light Gen

result despite gybing inaccuracies at one night (nog enough programming cards) was 60th

Post by Ursus Maritimus | 2017-12-27 | 23:05:50

Would it be possible to be able to make something where you can select a sail in the polar thinghy?

Use case: to decide whether or not to change sail or to engage autosail at boundary considitions for sailchange. (e.g 140 ATW with wind varying from 15 to 25).
Wat is the difference in boat speed with two different sails at the same conditions (ATW and wind speed)? In the VR-client you can see this in the actual situation with boat speeds per sail on the sail selection screen with only one decimal.

Post by toxcct | 2017-12-28 | 00:09:27

Currently, this is not possible because the Polars Chart is based upon a consolidated dataset, where only the best sail is known for a given TWA/WindSpeed...

Post by Ursus Maritimus | 2017-12-28 | 01:17:53

ok, thanks
so that would mean diggin' in the individual sail poalrs?

Post by toxcct | 2017-12-28 | 01:53:33

Yup.
That could be done, but I'm not sure that is worth it.
But once I fix all the issues I have in mind, maybe, who knows, I can start looking at this :)

Post by Ursus Maritimus | 2017-12-28 | 01:58:41

without winches every sail changes is 2.5 min. of standstill, compared to only 37.5s with winches. than it is even more important to be able to asses the damage of sailing with "WRONG SAILS" (as VR puts it)

Post by nsp | 2017-12-28 | 03:03:11

A "damage calculator", something really intuitive...that's the tool.

Something that automatically says, you use this you lose that...you made an option for not switching from lg to spi for 20 minutes, your gains are... You luff this to avoid a change sail you lose that but win xx

I am so sure that you guys are gonna end on that...i just don't know when.

Those were the most asked questions and loads of calculationsand intuition too in last 48 hours.

(Only beated for a stupid smart phone buzzer that was on silence...grrrrr)

Post by Ursus Maritimus | 2017-12-28 | 10:07:19

would be nice to have some kind of 'ROI' between sail change penalty and speed loss due to wrong sail

Post by Poisson Sourd | 2017-12-28 | 10:59:59

Hello, I ask someone to do a video tutorial to create a single CSV polar file with
http://toxcct.free.fr/polars/generator.htm

Post by toxcct | 2017-12-28 | 11:12:57

Hello,

Currently, this tool is still in development, and was not intended for wide usage ; more for my own use, even though I prefer letting it public for everyone's benefit.

I still have to write a "how to", like many other things I still have to do... ;)

If you want to know what sources you need, read the posts about VR Dashboard Chrome plugin

Post by Poisson Sourd | 2017-12-28 | 12:08:02

Thank you very much, just wish I had the Volvo Leg4 fleece "vo65" while waiting for your instructions on
http://toxcct.free.fr/polars/generator.htm

Post by Poisson Sourd | 2017-12-28 | 12:08:03

Thank you very much, just wish I had the Volvo Leg4 fleece "vo65" while waiting for your instructions on
http://toxcct.free.fr/polars/generator.htm

Post by toxcct | 2017-12-28 | 15:28:00

Post by Poisson Sourd | 2017-12-28 | 16:40:27

toxcct.free.fr/polars/datafiles/boats/volvo65/csv/sails.zip

404 - Not Found

Post by GeGaX | 2017-12-28 | 14:09:53

@Poisson Sourd : Check your messages on the VR forum, you have 2 tutorials ;)

Post by toxcct | 2017-12-28 | 15:29:42

I don't read the VR forum anymore since I got messages removed from that moron of Kezako, complained about it, and then got banned for doing so.

Post by marcusbelgicus | 2017-12-28 | 17:29:57

Thanks for your tool Toxcct, I have used it extensively for the Sydney Hobbart race! The only minor improvement that could be useful to implement is to be able to downselect the spy/jib sail to check how much those sails give over the pro sails. Normally this is not very usefull as pro-sails are always better than basic sails but on the clipper boat there is a quite significant portion of TWS/TWA that require spy sail.

Post by zezo | 2017-12-28 | 17:37:19

That was weird indeed. We should base the polar graphs on the Michael's code from the dashboard and the original json and be done with it once and for all.

Or at least until the next time VR change the game protocol and polar format.

Post by mak08 | 2017-12-28 | 21:52:07

Just in case somebody wants to do it (toxcct? :-)) I've linked the original json at
bitweide.de/polars/<race>.json
where <race> is the race name displayed in the dashboard, blanks replaced with underscores. For example:
bitweide.de/polars/Sydney_Hobart.json
and probably
bitweide.de/polars/VOR_4.json

Time for me to say thanks toxcct for the Polar thingy, I use it more and more. Very nice graphics.

[Edit: markup removed]

Post by toxcct | 2018-01-05 | 01:35:06

Guys,

Just to let you know, if you wonder why I have been a little bit silent those past weeks :
https://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/606204Untitled.png :-)

I am rewriting it entierely from scratch to benefit a better css, js and html DOM...

Post by Ursus Maritimus | 2018-01-05 | 11:06:32

naais work toxy city!

Post by nsp | 2018-01-05 | 02:04:31

OOOOOOOOOO and :O

these guys never stop surprising me... well doneeeee Toxxxxxx!!!!

Post by GeGaX | 2018-01-05 | 07:58:26

It sounds like a great job all that ! look forward to use it ;)

Post by LJadra | 2018-01-06 | 19:52:25

Thanks for a great tool.

I'm wondering if it would be possible to "lock" polar for a selected sail, showing the speed even off its optimal angle. That would be really useful.

Post by zezo | 2018-01-06 | 21:14:37

We should do it the way the old VR polars worked. Show speed for all sails, highlight the best one (also show the VMGs, which VR never did)

Post by SnowPetrel | 2018-01-06 | 21:25:15

Agreed. But there is a partial method. Right now, for you, TWS=15.7, TWA=130, so ToxPolar says LG is optimal with BS=17.95, with transition to C0 at TWA=127.

By unchecking "Light sails", LG goes away, and C0 fills in, same wind & angle, BS=17.69, and shows its use right up to TWA=135.

Similarly, by unchecking "Reaching sail" and rechecking "Light sails", you remove C0 as an option and see holding LG down to TWA=126.

There's no option for unchecking the standard sails.

Zezo noted elsewhere, and I've noticed too, that the VR polar transitions occur at slightly different TWA's. Also discussed that Autosail is dangerous at crossover TWA's. But to experiment with the VR polars is costly.

Post by zezo | 2018-01-06 | 21:32:07

That's the problem with the current implementation - you can't uncheck std sails, and that is a problem when you have light and heavy and wonder if it's worth switching.

Post by zezo | 2018-01-06 | 21:35:58

The real problem is with VR, of course. It would be easy to avoid all the hassle by:

1) creating 5-degree, 2 knot wind speed overlap between light and heavy sails.

2) making sure that they never underperform the STD sails

3) (if needed) add hysteresis for switching between equal sails

Post by toxcct | 2018-01-06 | 22:49:12

Cvetan,

Now, let's moving on again in front of VR.

Do you think you could share your compiler (that mysterious thing which builds a PNG file from the original CSV data ? - mysterious to me at least ^^)

I think I could not too hardly manage to plot the polar charts for every sail almost like VR was showing in there old UI...

Post by zezo | 2018-01-06 | 23:11:11

Sure, why not. But it's a piece of perl code that could be easier to implement from scratch than to read and understand.

The compiler that combines the polars into single csv:
/ideal_sail.txt

and then turn them into png.
/sail_png.txt

Edit: renamed .pl to .txt so the web server will serve them instead of running and failing.

Post by toxcct | 2018-01-06 | 23:22:23

ah crap, I don't know perl _AT_ALL_ ! lol

Thanks anyway for sharing.

I'll continue on my current work of rewriting my Tool first, and then I'll have a look at your code.
If you think you would be faster than me (I honnestly don't have a doubt about this) to produce a different format which we can operate to have the values of every sails (either separate png files or aggretated ones, or even bare CSV), please go ahead, I'm already late with all my works in progress, + day job + family (and last night, my 2yo daughter got sick and managed to puke in almost every rooms of the house... sleepless night)

Post by zezo | 2018-01-06 | 23:29:20

All of the needed js code to parse and use the original polars is in the extension, written by mak08.

Someone just has to add a GUI around it. No need for other file formats.

Post by LJadra | 2018-01-07 | 00:51:54

Exactly what I meant, you immediately understood.
Sometimes you loose more with sail change than going for a while with wrong one.

Post by toxcct | 2018-01-14 | 21:18:07

Post by toxcct | 2018-01-19 | 10:39:47

Polars v5 is now published in beta version.

You can test it here : --URL REMOVED; BETA CLOSED--

Please notice that this version is not yet final, and that some features may not work properly yet.
In any case, don't hesitate to tell me here what you think, and if you meet bugs or disturbance in its ergonomy...

The major changes are :
- Better use of the room around the chart to display more,
- CSV/POL files available to download,
- Some links added to redirect to a future FAQ (not yet written), the generator/extractor, and other external useful pages (like zezo.org for instance :) ),
- A better foil activation range overlay, using a color scale to show how much the foils are kicking,
- A new VMG Projection overlay, to graphically understand what VMG is,
- A button to reset the data stored, if anything goes wrong.

The site stores on your computer the following information, in order to operate properly :
> For each race selected : the TWA, the Wind Speed and the options checked
> For the global application : The Foils and the VMG Projection overlays.
> Anything else is rebuild dynamically.
These are not stored through cookies. They are stored within your browser "Local Storage".

Post by Flying Dutchman | 2018-01-19 | 12:35:32

Toxcct
Great grafics . Looks really nice. Great job

One bug maybe? When I put a TWS of +/- 10 followed by TWS of +/- 20 or so the TWA goes up to 129+.
However when I than place a TWS of +/- 10 the TWA stays up at 129+

Post by toxcct | 2018-01-19 | 12:39:54

Hum, I don't get it.

Can you provide the following details so I can try to reproduce please ?
- Which race is selected ?
- What TWA is set exactly, and how is it set (drag&drop with the mouse over the chart, or using the [-]/[+] buttons) ?
- What TWS is set exactly, and how is it set (entering a value in the field then pressing [Enter], or using the [<<][<][>][>>] buttons) ?
- What version of the application is displayed on your side ?

Thanks
tox

Post by Flying Dutchman | 2018-01-19 | 12:53:39

VOR4:) Used the new one you posted above 5.0.0-B03
TWS 10 --> TWA 90 sp 13.25 kn followed by
TWS 20 --> TWA 129 sp 22.64 kn followed by
TWS 10 --> TWA 129 sp 22.64 kn

I entered the value of the wanted TWS's in the field followed by enter
So the last TWS 10 does not go back to 90.

I marked all otions and the option behind foils

Post by toxcct | 2018-01-19 | 13:21:47

Ok, got it. It's not the boat speed which follows the blue radius, nor the speed displayed on the top-right sidebox.
It's the max speed which is not properly updated when Wind Speed decreases.

Thanks for that spot eagle-eye ;)

Post by Flying Dutchman | 2018-01-19 | 13:40:25

Feels good to contribute alittle without having any knowlegde of the bits:))

Post by toxcct | 2018-01-19 | 13:29:02

Fixed in 5.0.0-β04 (now online)

Post by Ursus Maritimus | 2018-01-28 | 23:21:29

Would it be possble to activate Clipper 7 and VOR 6 in the tool?
Or just keep Clipper and VOR active with the lateste polars.

Post by GeGaX | 2018-01-28 | 23:31:52

Hi,
HERE
;)

Post by toxcct | 2018-07-31 | 19:40:50

Hi GeGaX, Can you please edit your post and remove that obsolete link please ?
I keep getting attempts to reach this URL, even though I declared a 'Permanently removed' HTTP response

Post by Ursus Maritimus | 2018-01-29 | 05:30:47

nice!

Post by Ursus Maritimus | 2018-01-29 | 10:58:21

The beta doesn't remember options per boattype/race at the moment. If I change the option for Clipper, it is also changed for VOR and JVT.

Post by toxcct | 2018-01-29 | 21:01:59

Weird, because it does for me.
Can you click the "Reset" button (bottom-right of the page) and tell me if it behaves better after that ?
if so, it probably has something to do with data migration between v4.3 and v5, which use a different data model stored on your browser database, but I never met that issue though...

Post by Ursus Maritimus | 2018-01-29 | 21:09:28

thanks, that does the trick!

Post by pmangino | 2018-01-29 | 19:59:38

Thank you toxcct. Great job..!!!
Princess Marina

Post by toxcct | 2018-01-29 | 21:05:55

Thanks ;)
Still in WIP anyway ; keep in touch ^^

Post by Mullionman | 2018-02-07 | 19:13:15

Hi Guys,
Unable to type TWS figures for Clipper and VOR. If current figure is deleted, it's stuck at NaN.
I tried reloading page but that leaves Clipper and VOR totally blank of data.

Post by Mullionman | 2018-02-08 | 09:17:22

All OK now. I used the reset stored data function.

Post by Ursus Maritimus | 2018-03-02 | 11:56:06

Hi, would it be possible to add the upcoming races (Dubai and C7) ?

Post by Szczepi7 | 2018-03-02 | 14:16:33

What about polar from "Sailing Legends - Loick Peyron" ?? Is it possible to get it from somwhere ?

Post by toxcct | 2018-03-03 | 23:08:07

I was on holidays, with no access to the internet...

Publishing all these new races on the /polars/ page right now.

Sorry for the delay

Post by Ursus Maritimus | 2018-03-03 | 23:15:18

great job toxcct! and just in time for the next clipper leg

Post by Ursus Maritimus | 2018-03-03 | 23:15:51

no problem for you I guess, the new 2 kts minimum wind limit?

Post by toxcct | 2018-03-03 | 23:18:18

Looks like I'm late on some readings, but that won't have any consequence on the polars anyway

Post by Ursus Maritimus | 2018-03-03 | 23:19:44

ok. hope you don't have to cross the equator in JVT ;)

that would cost you much more time now ...

Post by toxcct | 2018-03-03 | 23:22:21

I did 2 days ago :(
with only access to my phone, with no zezo, I dropped from around top 100 to top 500 sailing back up the atlantic
(I mean, I could normally get my route with zezo, but I was in a very badly internet-connected ski station, and I could barely change my boat heading, with many attempts to get actually connected into the game every time I tried. That was horrible)

Post by JohnT | 2018-03-04 | 07:01:41

Hope you enjoyed the skiing! I don't think the bad connection was the only problem, it was just a bad time to climb the Atlantic: I was part of a group that rounded Cape Horn on Feb 19th a few hours faster than Buddha (still in the Cape Horn top ten on DancingDJMike's spreadsheet), but when we crossed the equator on Wednesday we were all at least 24hrs behind her....not even Zezo can tell you what to expect 30-40 days out!
John/Truffle Hunter

Post by Mullionman | 2018-03-04 | 10:56:44

Hi toxcct,
Could you put the new link to the polars here please.
I get the latest version on pc but not on iOS for iPad, even after refresh.
Thanks
Dave

Post by Ursus Maritimus | 2018-03-04 | 11:00:27

http://toxcct.free.fr/polars_beta/

Post by Mullionman | 2018-03-04 | 12:14:36

Nope, sorry but that takes me to version 10 where it says to refresh to version 11.

Post by toxcct | 2018-03-04 | 13:10:22

You need to "Force Refresh" the page so that it gets all the latest files properly.
I don't know how you can do that on iOS however...
Don't you have a "clear cache" menu somewhere ?

Post by zezo | 2018-03-04 | 13:24:41

If the problem is with cached js data you can force reload on behalf of the user by adding an otherwise meaningless parameter to the html source:

src="js/polars.js" becomes src="js/polars.js?1" etc.

Post by Mullionman | 2018-03-05 | 07:32:59

Ok now. I changed browser.

Post by toxcct | 2018-08-01 | 06:33:29

Hi Ursus,

Could you please edit your message so that it doesn't reference the Beta URL anymore ?
I still get attempts to reach this page, even though it's been removed/replaced for a month now...

Thanks.

Post by marcusbelgicus | 2018-03-31 | 19:43:07

Hi Toxcct, is there a way to get it last version on a smartphone? I have the old version but cannot load the data with the new version?
Thanks

Post by toxcct | 2018-04-02 | 17:06:25

Hi there,

So far, the latest url is --URL REMOVED; BETA CLOSED--, and the latest version is 5.0.1-β02 (spot the version on the bottom left of the page).

The page should be updated by itself. If not, force a refresh.

(also, I started a new topic because this one was getting too long... see here : http://zezo.org/forum.pl?tid=6422 )

Post by UR2L8 | 2018-03-31 | 19:44:28

This polar thingy beta version is just simply amazing! I love it!

Post by toxcct | 2018-04-02 | 17:09:51

Thanks mate :)
Make sure to use the latest one as well

Post by Ursus Maritimus | 2018-04-03 | 03:57:52

yeah! it's great to compare speeds with sails, like know at the finish, so you can control your choice between sail change (penalty) and sailing a few miles with the sub-optimal sail.