Zezo forum:

Post by WildWassa | 2018-03-14 | 07:36:42

I've been finding to my disappointment, that time penalties can be incurred for doing simple manoevoures or when making changes to the boat's performance, when racing?

Where can I find a complete�list of all of penalties and the severity when racing?

For example, when engaging auto-pilot, changing headings, sailing manually, changing sails manually,�engaging the auto-sail, setting waypoints, using pro winch over the basic winch, etc?

When in auto pilot, do we incur a time penalty each time the boat�changes a�heading? I've been avoiding using auto-pilot because changes of heading can happen many times within a relatively short distance and time. Not knowing what happens with, is scary and affecting my performance

Are there any other�penalties that I have not mentioned?

Thank you in anticipation for your advice.

24 Comments

Post by mak08 | 2018-03-14 | 09:18:44

If your are referring to the dashboard, there are situations where the dashboard information may be misleading. Penalties are only inflicted for the following:

- Tack or Gybe
- Manual or automatic sail change

The boat speed is always reduced to 1/2 of the new nominal speed, and the penalty time depends on whether you have Pro Winches (75sec) or not (300sec).

Engaging or disengaging AutoSail or TWA is not penalized, and neither are course changes that are not tacks or gybes and do not cause sail changes. Note that sail changes, as well as tacks and gybes, may be caused by wind changes.

Post by WoKeN | 2018-03-16 | 18:54:19

Can we disengage Autosail? Please explain.

Post by mak08 | 2018-03-16 | 22:37:01

AutoSail is terminated if you select a sail manually, even if you select the sail that's currently selected by AutoSail.

I just tried it in JV - there is no penalty.

Post by zezo | 2018-03-14 | 09:27:44

There are 3 basic penalties. Tack, Gybe and Sail Change.

They are currently all the same - 50% performance. 75 seconds with Pro Winches and 300 seconds without. They are also additive - you get to 25% with simultaneous tack and sail change.

As to other details - they change over time. First there was no penalty with autosails, then there was penalty for activation but not for the actual change and now it's on the change.

Then there was a problem with the wind interpolation that would cause 2 spurious sail changes within 10-minute interval, sometimes repeatedly. VR fixed it the stupid (and wrong) way by adding 0.3% tolerance before the sail change. That means you can sail with up to 0.3% performance loss for a while. There is also 1% tolerance before you get the bad sail warning, so you can't rely on the notification either.

Post by Ursus Maritimus | 2018-03-14 | 11:58:49

better some hysteresis than unlimited sail changes (and penalties) ;)

Post by zezo | 2018-03-14 | 13:09:17

Sure, it's better than nothing, but the real problem are the artificially generated polars and the way they (don't) overlap.

Like when beating upwind with a full pack there is a gap between the light and strong sails where you use the Jib briefly. In real world you might also use a progression like Genoa->Jib->Staysail, but the range would be much wider.

Post by WildWassa | 2018-03-15 | 00:40:34

mak08 and zezo, thank you.

I was unsure if I was incurring a time penalty for making small changes to headings. Changes within only a few degrees, without performing a tack or gibe. Also, looking for a performance increase by changing heading slightly and not finding one and then returning to the original heading.

It was the 'change of heading validated' notice that appears, that was having me think that I had incured a time penalty.

Thanks again.

Post by RastaSLO | 2018-03-15 | 08:10:22

Hi,
Is there a penalty for checking a tack/gybe, so actually making a turn with mouse (on PC, but holding a button) in tack to see a 24 hour trajectory, but then moving back to old heading? If I check possibilty of tack there is always a message that new heading is set/validated even after doing that heading is the same as before.
Thanks.

Post by mak08 | 2018-03-15 | 11:44:19

If you see the 'validated' message this means a server command was issued and there will be a penalty in case of a tack/gybe/sail change.

However, commands are timed on the next full minute. If you send another command before the minute completes, you effectively undo the first command.

Post by WoKeN | 2018-03-16 | 18:55:34

In the past there was a �confirm� button when changing course. Not anymore, which makes playing around with various courses very costly...

Post by Barnacle Bob | 2018-03-15 | 08:43:06

@RastaSLO,, not to my knowledge, unless you let go of the button for long enough. I think its a bit like chess, if you don't take your finger off the piece, while your checking a new course, and return it to its original position its not counted as a move, however if your finger slips or your mouse doesn't co-operate and you linger longer you may find yourself with multiple penalties,, once it says validated your're committed I believe

Post by zezo | 2018-03-15 | 09:40:22

It's not exactly so. The actual commands sent to the server are not integer number, therefore indicated TWA 42 may mean 41.5 or 42.5

It's harmless most of the time, but could mean 0.5% performance loss at sharp polar peak or could send your boats on the rocks.

Same thing works with fixed heading too. So you are sailing HDG 133 and clearing that island, switch to 132, back to 133 and end up on the beach.

Not sure if it's stupid programming or naive attempt to divide the difference that does add to 360 between the TWA and HDG.

Post by Barnacle Bob | 2018-03-15 | 10:17:56

Thats handy to know , thanks.

Post by zezo | 2018-03-15 | 13:20:15

@mak08 There is also additional twist to that. If you don't use autosails and the heading change also requires a sail change there is the risk that the sail change is scheduled on the following minute and you lose speed for 60 seconds because of the wrong sail.

So in such double commands you should be keeping an eye on your PC clock and try to do both operations within the same whole minute.

Post by sailcascais | 2018-03-17 | 11:29:39

Good Morning,

to conclude this topic. Boat is 75 seconds off or 75 seconds with 1/2 of the speed.

Example: If we navigate to 10 Kts and we change sail

Boat sails at 0.00277 per second (10Kts / 3600)

Thus we lose:

hypothesis 1: 0.0027777 * 75 = 0.20

hypothesis 2: 0.0027777 * 75/2 = 0.104

Thank you

Sorry for this translation.

SailCascais

Post by zezo | 2018-03-17 | 12:52:17

75 seconds at half speed. Those seconds may fall within one 2-minute iteration or be split in two.

Post by sailcascais | 2018-03-17 | 13:12:16

thank you very much

Post by WildWassa | 2018-03-17 | 14:07:35

sailcascais, Ahoy Skipper.

If I have read your hypothesis 2 correctly, 10kts @ half speed for 75 seconds, means we are losing a distance of 0.104 nautical miles, with each penalty?

I really appreciate everyone's response to my question. Your replies are most rewarding.

I race with the Challenge PDD Fleet and every advantage I can gain against the experienced PDD Skippers, will be good.

Good luck in the VOR 7.

Post by sailcascais | 2018-03-17 | 14:30:29

Good afternoon Wildwasser,
Zezo's answer, (constant conditions) is correct.

Post by Sambaopreis | 2018-03-17 | 15:16:51

For easy calculation:

With winches you loose 1%
Without winches you loose 4%

Post by zezo | 2018-03-17 | 15:22:49

Yep, we had a long thread about that a while ago, and as a rule of thumb it would be about 1% of your hourly distance (75 seconds half speed is like 37.5 at standstill which is close to 36 and that's 1/100 of 3600.

Post by LJadra | 2018-03-17 | 18:02:21

Cvetan,
if I have understood your post above correctly, you get just one penalty with simultaneous tack and sail change?

Post by zezo | 2018-03-17 | 18:07:31

You get one penalty, 25% speed for 75 seconds. Which is slightly better mathematically than 150 seconds at 50% speed.

The post above was about a simple turn that supposes a sail change, but without tack/gybe. Like switching from 45 to 60 or 60 to 90.